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Would be interested in Gold Bug or not a Gold Bug take on GOLD MONEY
ContrarianBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 11:30 AM
James Turk is well respected in the industry. This is a very interesting concept and perhaps the wave of the future. Check it out and let me know what you think?
www.goldmoney.com
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I may be a stubborn and stupid bear, but;
bruintje - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 11:39 AM
Gold on an account is not the same as physical in your house.
If we do believe in a longer term financial crash scenario, I think like most bears on this forum do, although they can have very good reasons to be bullish on the short term - gold on paper is not to be preferred.
I would prefer having the gold bars - NOT at a bank - remember Argentina - and for paper gold, I would choose some gold miners.
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That was pretty blunt. 
ContrarianBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 11:43 AM
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Can't the same argument apply to paper gold shares??
ContrarianBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 11:47 AM
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Re: Can't the same argument apply to paper gold shares??
bruintje - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 11:56 AM
Sure - but one part of me says : you are too pessimistic - the financial world will NOT tank.
So that is why I have physical + gold/silver miners.
If I would REALLY believe that the end of the financial world is near, I would only have physical. The world survived even after 1929.
My point was: do not take "rights on gold on paper" as an equivalent of "gold in your house".
What if it will really blow-off and it is illegal to own? Sure there will always be a second or black market for physical - not for paper.
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I most certainly agree with holding gold, the real stuff 
ContrarianBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 12:03 PM
What if the US and Canada decided to nationalize the miners?
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Re: I most certainly agree with holding gold, the real stuff
bruintje - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 12:10 PM
Yep - but you can not foresee everything.
I am a bear but not soooo big bear that I think that all gold mines will be confiscated - although I thought of that.
I you believe that : only physical!!!!
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Re: I most certainly agree with holding gold, the real stuff
ContrarianBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 12:22 PM
Anything is possible in a debt based economy that will implode sooner or later. The smart thing would be to let it implode now but that would not be politically correct. Oh Well.
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I'd consider 1998 as more appropriate 
SuisseBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 12:58 PM
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A global mix may alleviate that concern
SuisseBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 12:55 PM
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Founder of Gold Money, James Turk is interviewed on Jim Puplava's Financial Sense News Hour this week.
Georgia Bear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 01:03 PM
It's on the second hour. I'm about as bullish on Gold as any, but in this new era (of fraud) I don't trust anyone. There have been several companies in the past that would supposedly sell you gold or silver but when authorities finally gained access to their vaults they were empty. I really like the idea of Gold Money, but I would have to have very strong assurances that the Gold I pay for is mine and safe, otherwise it's just a Private Fiat Currency. I hold some CEF in my IRA because I feel that there are safeguards in place and the fund has a long track record, but I'm still nervous about it. I'm also going to buy some Gold Eagles for my IRA through Fidelity that I will never be permitted to see. They are stored and allocated to me in a private vault in Delaware. Again, I feel there are sufficient safegaurds in place, but I would feel better about the vault being outside the reach of the Gubbermint (if anything is these days). The interview with Mr Turk is very interesting and goes into the way GoldMoney works.
Best Regards;
Georgia Bear
http://www.netcastdaily.com/fsnewshour.htm
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CB, thks for starting a provacative thread
shebesavvy - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 01:22 PM
My hesitancy re online goldmoney, in addition to the excellent caveats already given, concerns the web itself.
1) I think we kid ourselves that secure sites cannot be ultimately breeched by predatory interests, gubmint, or otherwise.
2) Were someone(s) interested in humiliating/disabling the world's bellicose superpower, and lacked aricraft carriers, etc., would it not make sense to train up hackers/techno-wizards to go after the potential vulnerability of our reliance on electronic transactions and communication?
That said, physical in the hand may have more weight, as it were, than remote promises to pay. (Including, those "backed by the full faith and credit" of bankrupting gubmints, federal, or state.)
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DadBlast it. Provocative may be the correct spelling!
shebesavvy - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 01:35 PM
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A couple of questions...
MillennialBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 02:47 PM
1) For gold bugs who want to keep 100% physical on premises, would Gold Money or some similar scheme be appropriate for day-to-day transactional business? If not, what would?
2) I saw no mention of IRA/retirement account options for Gold Money on their site...?
Also: I found the "Fear Index" essay provocative.
http://goldmoney.com/en/commentary/2003-07-22.html
--MB
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Re: A couple of questions...
Bearbelly - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 03:17 PM
:Also: I found the "Fear Index" essay
:provocative.
You did? I found it suspicious!
1) Does increased fear cause the POG to rise, or viceversa?
2) In a debt collapse, M3 will probably decline, thus making the fear index go up (As well it should!), but the POG doesn't necessarily have to rise!!!
3) Maybe the "fear" index is the same as the age-old "scare" tactic used by salespeople....Buy now (from me, of course), before the price goes up!!!
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CB I think it is the wave of the future, especially if we go back to some form of gold standard. However, having my $$ on the web where eyes can peer at it, still makes me too edgy.
NorthwestBear - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 06:55 PM
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Just subscribed a holding: Reasons
Faux_Paw - Sun, Jul 27, 2003 - 10:10 PM
Consider this: most of the arguments and tradeoffs of holding physical vs. paper amounts to a lot of "Hand-wringing" and "Climbing the Wall of Worry"--sure signs to me that we are dealing with a Bull market in precious metals. These same concerns are keeping many other players out of this market and keeping many PM bulls too conservative. I remember too well how I used to fret and worry about getting into tech stocks as the bull market ran away from me in the late 90's. Battling with fear/worrying has its costs too.
1) So, how secure do you think Ft. Knox really is? no audit in decades, rumors as to the vaults being empty, no response from the authorities as to the accounting of the "Peoples' Gold". I just cannot get too picky worrying about how secure the Bank of Alberta is where CEF physical is stored, or how secure the London vault is where GoldMoney has their little pile, when we have no idea how bereft the US Treasury might be of physical. (worry, worry, worry...)
2) Confiscation? Once someone asked if anyone actually knew of anyone who was arrested for refusing to hand over their gold in the 30's? Well, do you know of anyone who actually spent time in the federal pen for defending their stash? Remember that the rich and powerful need to have the right to own precious metals legally and to hedge their paper assets right along side the bears on this board. It would get to be kind of embarassing if worker slaves in China could own gold but high net worth US citizens could not. (worry, worry...) Consider that in the 30's the bankers were flush with getting management of the currency away from the US Congress in 1913 and were frustrated with decades of the gold standard--they wanted to see the gold cross of thorns lifted too and confiscation by the government in a crisis was an opportunity to do that. Today we have the other side of the problem--a paper crisis, and guys like Sinclair talking seriously about the gold cover clause coming back.
3) Diversification? yes, mining shares in various countries. But consider that any government which nationalizes their gold mines runs the risk of alienating foreign investors who are also proping up their banks, currency, bond market and other natural resource industries. I doubt they would want to risk destroying their economy unless it was already toast, but by that time I hope I've traded in my metals for a small armada of fast boats!
4) Location? If I lived in the wilds of canada like albertabear on another board I could dig a mighty deep hole somewhere in Alberta and fill it with gold. Being a renter of modest means the problem of holding physical or mining share certificates and crossing borders ahead of the authorities or outlaws seems very problematic to me. I like the idea of crossing the border with my laptop and accessing my account holding my GoldGrams from anywhere else which seems safer. That appeals to me. Also, the trading of GoldGrams for goods and conversion back to different currencies means I don't have to hire a mean and hungry guy named Guido to be my body guard when I go to the black market to cash in my little stash.
5) I think Turk is onto something which solves a lot of problems. However, it will need time to catch on and prove itself. I noticed the number of bars added each year seems to be growing parabolic. For just another way to hold a claim on a little physical--I'm in. (and not worry so much except about who I'm gonna get to skipper my fast smuggling boats!)
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Re: Just subscribed a holding: Reasons
ContrarianBear - Mon, Jul 28, 2003 - 08:46 AM
Thanks for your well thought out post. I am sitting in a lot of folding cash and gold. I was interested in Gold Money as an alternative to growing worthless dollar in a dangerous US bank.
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Re: Just subscribed a holding: Reasons
Faux_Paw - Mon, Jul 28, 2003 - 12:58 PM
CB, I always read your posts--you keep me thinking and more alert.
Same problem--what to do with USD cash holdings and how to keep them safe. I've tried Treasury Direct and US Treasury-only MMF's, but agonize about the falling $USD. I had heard about James Turk's GoldMoney site but never seriously considered it in the past. When I heard his interview on Puplava's site a light went off in my head and things started to click that this just might offer some solutions as to a better way to handle the preferable currency, gold. Despite any unforeseen problems that might come up I'm willing to take a risk on a modest holding to see how this works out. For me the falling $USD is the greater risk factor. I have much more to learn about GoldMoney, but so far this looks promising.
Thanx for all your posts--they're much appreciated.
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Faux Paw, I agree with CB, good post. James Turk has a very good reputation, also.
NorthwestBear - Mon, Jul 28, 2003 - 01:46 PM
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Above & Beyond 
BearCreek - Mon, Jul 28, 2003 - 01:44 PM
THAT was good!
Okay folks, lets not be too shy about this kind of material. Need to see some paws out there for goodies like this one
I'm not around here all the time and I don't see every post -- ya gotta help me out here 
Good job Faux_Paw!
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